Welcome to Industry Expert Magazine and podcast. In this issue, we are going to explore a topic that I feel is top of mind for many industry experts, and that is how to start or guest on podcasts. And it didn’t take me long to find my featured guest in this issue and this episode, the incredible Annemarie Cross.
Annemarie is a personal branding and podcast strategist and business coach. She’s also the CEO and founder of Ambitious Entrepreneur Podcast Network and Industry Thought Leader Academy, and the author of INDUSTRY THOUGHT LEADER: How to Go from Invisible to Influential (and Profitable) with a Podcast. Annemarie Cross is an award- winning podcast host (also known as The Podcasting Queen) and is recognized as a pioneer in the podcasting space.
She started her first co-hosted podcast in 2008, and her podcasts have been syndicated on both national and international radio, and listed among the top podcasts for entrepreneurs and small businesses worldwide. Recognized as one of the top 20 business coaches in Melbourne, Australia, Annemarie works with consultants and coaches around the world, helping them create distinguishable and irresistible brands, so they’re seen as not just a choice, but the choice with their ideal clients.
Annemarie, welcome to Industry Expert Magazine and podcasts. It’s a pleasure to have you.
Oh, and it’s such a pleasure to be speaking with you today, Mary.
Okay, Annemarie, I want to cover both sides of the podcasting coin, starting one and guesting on one. But first, what changes have you seen in the podcasting industry just in the last 10 years, and where do you think it’s heading?
One of the biggest changes we’ve seen since 2008 when we started podcasting is that many more people know what a podcast is. They’ve consumed a podcast, and they certainly know how to access one. I used to have to explain what a podcast was, how to access them, and how to listen to them, but I no longer need to do that. Also, listeners are flocking to podcasts because when done correctly, you offer your ideal clients content that you share through your own expertise as well as through that of your guests.
I focus on making sure you have the right strategy in place so that all of the energy and time and money you’re investing into it really does pay off as far as leads and clients. You’ve
got this hungry niche audience you can speak to. And there’s no real barrier to entry there, so all of that together with an industry that is set to be increasing over the next few years is really exciting.
So you are a pioneer when it comes to podcasting, and you have the credentials to back you. I’ve been following you for many years, and I know that you’re a critical thinker. You speak true, you’re an advocate for entrepreneurs, especially women, and you have a big heart. Your brand is consistent and congruent with who you are and what you do. I say this because you show up unapologetically as your authentic self, and you have established a global tribe to support that. And one common theme I sense from many industry experts who are genuine masters in their domain is fear of being judged when they put themselves out there in the public domain, regardless of whether it’s social media or a podcast.
From your experience, what stops people from taking the first step to being visible on social media, starting a podcast, or even guesting on a podcast?
First, there are a couple of things that I regularly hear, like ”Where do I get started? How do I get started? What technology do I need?” And exactly as you’ve just said, ”When I start sharing my message, who would want to hear from me anyway? There are so many different podcasts that are already speaking about that particular topic. How am I going to be any different?”
The feedback that they may get, the negativity, and all of those things, keep them stuck. But I believe you can speak to who you are even if someone challenges you. You may not know everything about the particular topic, but you know enough and far more than your ideal client, the audience you are here to serve and support. So don’t let the naysayers and other people who speak negatively stop you from sharing a message that your client needs to hear.
Second, you can come back and share, because many of the industry experts that I know you are working with, Mary, who don’t have your community still have lived and breathed what they are sharing. So if anyone comes to challenge them, I’m sure that they have information to share that would provide even more value. I had an ad on Facebook, and someone commented and said to me, ”Here is this person. She’s in a studio that obviously looks like her house. She’s behind the door. That’s not very professional.” So I came back and said to her ”Oh, that’s right.”
She said, ”And look at this. She calls us out, The Podcasting Queen.” And I thought that was a wonderful opportunity to have a conversation. So I said, ”Well, actually, I would love to be able to claim that I came up with the term The Podcasting Queen, but I didn’t. I just love podcasting. And my community started calling me that. And the reason I show my office is that here I am in my home-based studio, being able to impact the world with my message.”
And that’s what I want to show my ideal client. You don’t need to have a full-on professional studio. So even with all the things she was criticizing me for, I was able to go back and very calmly respond. And then someone commented and messaged me privately and said, ”Oh, I love the way that you interacted with that person. I know her personally, and she’s been through quite a rough trot in her life.” And I said, ”Yeah, I thought so. Something triggered her when she saw that.”
But still, my point is don’t let what could be some criticism stop you, because you can turn it into great content, which everybody can learn from and I did as well.
You said something really important, which is that when you understand your subject really deeply and widely, you can be challenged, but you can maintain a composure of groundedness because you understand the subject matter inside out. You have the confidence to be able to answer any question that comes your way because it’s backed by 20, or 30 years of experience. And it’s not just experiencing, Annemarie; I learned something this week. My whole angle and passion, and what I stand for, is educating people that wisdom is a currency. And somebody asked me the other day what wisdom is to me. It’s making massive amounts of mistakes and failures and learning from them. And actually being able to speak to that.
So just to add to what you are saying, it’s that one little bit that you need to know about it with absolute conviction and mastery. And that’s what you focus on rather than a little bit of everything, which is what I think a lot of people do. They want to go with what’s hot this month. But instead of doing that, wouldn’t it actually be easier just to stay on your path and stick to what you stand for, those values that are the backbone of your experience, knowledge, and skills? Do you agree with that? Is that something you teach your clients?
Clients? Absolutely. I have to smile when you talk about making mistakes. Everything that I teach now in my work with podcasting is about making mistakes. And I call those markers and milestones. Markers are the challenges that you’ve overcome, the mistakes that you’ve made. And the milestones are the changes that you made or the accidental successes that came from not letting that mistake hold you down. I know many of us are driven, and we will get up and we’ll try and try again. What did you do to eventually get that to a milestone? A success? And no one can challenge you because it’s your story. It’s your journey. You’ve walked that path and probably been on your knees sometimes because you’ve been in absolute desperation.
But you’ve now come up with a solution, with a blueprint, with a model that you can then teach others to fast-track, so they don’t have to make the same mistakes that you made.
Now, my accidental success, and one that I really look back on as a learning milestone and a marker for me is what I currently teach on my Women and Leadership podcast. I started that podcast after my worst business failure ever. I had a partnership, and we had a seven-figure pipeline business. We were working with some high-level clients, and that opened us up to incredible opportunities. But for reasons, I won’t explain today, that came to a crashing hold.
And I was left thinking, ”Oh my goodness! I have just spent 18 months putting all of my energy into that!” I was burned out. I knew I needed to have some time off to deal with my grief and loss. And I thought that I also needed to continue to do something, to move forward and learn. So I decided to surround myself with awesome women who had gone through what I had. I wanted to learn from them and surround myself with them. So I started the Women in Leadership podcast. Three episodes in, I accidentally generated two four-figure clients.
I thought I could backtrack the steps that these two successful women took – one was a doctor transitioning into her own business and the other was an architect – and learn from them. Although they had no idea who I was, they searched for branding consultants, happened to stumble across my website, and obviously looked at the articles that were there. I know that you love the website, so this is so important. They listened to the three episodes and basically made a decision to work with me. They rang me and they said they wanted to work with me. What was the best program to support their needs?
So I backtrack those steps, and that’s very much what I now teach in my Podcasting with Purpose program. And it was on the back of starting a podcast to deal with grief and loss with that accidental success. We all have them. Sometimes we just need to dig for them, don’t we? And that can be an incredible lesson and part of the model that we teach in our work.
I just love that. You know, just as an extension to what we’ve been talking about, there are a lot of people who are holding onto a lot of wisdom. And in my opinion and experience, I do believe, Annemarie, that wisdom is the only way we can solve complex issues in the world that we live in. And if I am an expert in digital transformation, should I be thinking about starting a podcast or guesting on a podcast or both? What are the pros and cons of either of those?
Well, the pro is when you get the right strategy in place, it is going to work for you from the moment that you are the guest, or you launch your own podcast. Of course, it could be a con if you don’t have the right steps in place. And some of these mistakes are ones that I made.
The first one is kind of what we’ve been talking about – don’t try to be all things to all people with your content. The more niche that you go based on your experience, and your unique model, the better. Bringing in great content challenges the status quo. You don’t want to launch a podcast or you don’t want to have a topic and be sharing that topic in the same way that so many others do.
You need to weave in your unique story, your unique journey, so that you do really separate yourself from all the others. That’s really important. And you have to do that consistently. You also need to have the right strategy in place whereby you can continue to nurture those listeners into leads. And I’m talking about the things that we should all be doing in our businesses. Do you have the right nurturing funnels in a place like technology to support you? Because one of the things with podcasting is that people will often listen to a podcast because they want a solution. They are not necessarily listening to a podcast with a mindset of hiring the podcaster. So you want to have some things in place where that nurturing can continue. in a place where that nurturing can continue.
You know, that building of ”know, like, and trust” and positioning yourself as the choice versus just a choice is often where I see a lot of coaches and consultants wear themselves out. I did this myself because not all of those in the audience are yet in a position to decide to want to work with you. So, often you have that one opportunity if you’re guesting, and if you don’t have the right strategy in place, you miss out on getting all those people to come with you off the podcast and then into your community, onto your list. It’s important for your own podcast as well. So if you want to start a podcast or be a guest or both, have
that strategy in place and that nurturing funnel so that you can continue to nurture those listeners into leads.
Annemarie, can we just break down some moving parts when it comes to starting a podcast? Let’s say that someone comes to you and says they want to start a podcast because they feel there is a gap in their industry – what advice would you give that person?
There are a couple of things that I look out for, and I’ll share a resource later so they can actually go and experience this themselves. Obviously, the first thing is the message. I know that you do this beautifully with your clients, looking at that unique, irresistible message. So it really stands out, it challenges the status quo, and that’s important and should be consistent across podcasting, guesting, and all of the other content you should be sharing. And that’s where we look at focusing on some other things like the keywords and phrases that are going to impact being found, such as a podcast title. That’s what will come up organically in a search.
Most of my podcast titles are very basic, like Women in Leadership podcasts. I’m not talking about gardening, although there may be a woman in leadership who’s passionate about gardening. But sometimes we come up with these creative or incredibly witty titles for our podcasts, but they’re not going to get found because no one is looking for them. The second is looking at your funnel and so forth, and ensuring they’re in place when you launch. Are you going to be able to not only leverage the audience that you are building but also look at the existing audience that you already have to be able to get them to the podcast?
That’s another thing I think business owners and entrepreneurs often negate. We are always looking for a new audience, but what about the existing audience who’ve been following you? Wouldn’t they love to hear this podcast interview or love this podcast that you’re creating and want to support you as you are going through the launch? So we look at that, and it’s all around the message, the positioning, the strategy, and the technology that you have to support you. And I’m not talking about the microphone. In fact, always think about the message before the make and model of the microphone, because you cannot edit and mix compelling content that converts from a lackluster conversation.
All of that impacts its branding of it. I also look at the first three episodes. Remember I said the first three episodes in my Women in Leadership podcast generated those two four- figure clients? So I thought, maybe I could create a special thought-leader podcast series where my ideal clients are looking for further information. It would provide that in a three- part series, which is like a mini training for the mini masterclass. What if I was to put that early on in the funnel and start nurturing people? Would that nurture them even further and help them realize that they never thought of it that way? And so, what’s interesting is that statistics show that in the sales funnel, in that customer journey, people who are looking for a solution want to have relevant, high-quality, high-value content. That makes sense, right?
And do this at the forefront. Don’t wait till later. Don’t be scared to share it all, because guess what? You cannot capture all of those
20 or 30 years of experience in a podcast series or in episodes. You couldn’t even put it all together in a course! The value is working with you, so share that. And so we work on those first three episodes. Are they really showcasing your expertise and speaking specifically about the problems that your ideal client is looking for a solution for? And then we’ll nurture them along that client journey, hopefully, to get them to sign up for one of your strategy calls.
And what about people who only want to be a guest on a podcast, who don’t want to start a podcast, but a part of their lead generation strategy is to guest on podcasts. For those that want to be guests, what advice do you give them?
One thing that we need to be mindful of is that people who listen to podcasts often have a preference for audio, for listening. What I often will see are coaches or consultants using an e-book or video as their lead generation, their gift, their offer, something that is using a mode of communication that’s very different from the audio. So while you may not necessarily want to have a podcast, create some content that’s easy to absorb, but possibly in the audio format so that your call to action will more likely be consumed by people who love the podcast audio platform.
Does that make sense?
Oh, absolutely. I myself have been interviewed on maybe over a hundred podcasts, and I love podcasting because I get to use my voice. It’s very important for me to be in my natural state every day. And I found that podcasting is one of those areas where I can self-express my area of expertise only. I’m not interested in talking about, as you say, cats and dogs and things of that nature. It’s just really focused on my brain story and my area of specialization. But there seems to be a trend that I experience with a lot of podcast hosts: They sell their podcast services at the end. These are really big podcasts, but at the end of it, they all seem to have this one trait. And while I understand that everyone wants to make a living, it can also be a turnoff for a lot of people. However, I do like the idea that it is a sales strategy and that can be applied to other type of services as well. Is this something that you encourage and teach? And if you do, what are a couple of tips you can share with our listeners and subscribers?
The strategy that you just explained is one that a client actually went through, and I don’t subscribe to that strategy at all. In fact, if you are on point and have done everything that we have just shared, if your guest is your ideal client, you don’t have to bribe them or push anything through your sharing your story and message. They are going to think they need to talk to you. So that whole strategy feels icky to me.
Other industry experts have complementary services and expertise that you know your ideal client and/or your community can get incredible value from. So if you look at the opportunity, the business opportunity is far greater than that one person. My community is certainly beneficial to you, to your expertise, and vice versa. So we are talking about potential joint ventures and alliance partnerships. I mean, I have had opportunities where I’ve guested and or had a guest and they have asked to talk afterward. And then they’ve ended up hiring me or investing, but that has just come off the back of me sharing and just doing what I love to do.
I agree with you, Annemarie. Just on the flip side of that, for those who are looking for guesting or even hosting – what’s your view on those matching services for podcasts? Are you in favor of those or is it always best to email the podcast host directly and try and get yourself interviewed? Because those matching services seem to do a lot of the heavy lifting?
When I first started, we had a number of those podcast services that would reach out to us. And it was helpful in times when I might not have had a guest or there was a topic that I might not have even been aware of that was spoken about. But now I have found that when an industry starts to increase, all of a sudden you have all of these services coming out of the woodwork. Now as a podcast host, I see a real difference in the relationships that I have with my guests when they’re paying to be on my show. And so I personally would not use one of those services because I have a team that does that.
And second, even as a podcast host, I’m really wary of those podcast services. I would say 90% are the guests that we find and maybe 10% we might leave open for those podcaster services because now it’s become very much monetized. There’s a difference between a guest who has paid to come on my podcast because they expect something of me and a guest I’m looking for to provide value for my audience. Not just because they’ve had to pay someone to come on the show; that’s a completely different relationship.
And your audience can sense those things. I’ve always said to be mindful of what you do and who and how you share that with your audience. Remember it can take months and years to build rapport with your audience, but that rapport and trust can be broken if you start to pitch in the wrong way or you have these guests that you can see are really only promoting themselves.
Annemarie, that’s a very, very good point. How do you think the podcast industry will evolve 10 years from now? I mean, will it be the new social media platform? What’s your view on that?
I think it’s certainly along the path of where it’s continued. And I know you asked the question, what have you seen differently between now and when we first started? When we first started the podcast, we struggled to monetize it too. Mentors back then were sparse, so we hired people who had come from mainstream radio, and they told us the only way that you can really monetize your podcast was through sponsorships and adverts. So now because these advertisers see a lucrative market, we see far more people incorporating ads and sponsors into their podcasts. Of course, there’s nothing wrong with that if you get the right sponsor in place.
However, again be mindful that your audience. If it’s highly niche, you’re going to generate far more through monetizing your own message before you monetize through your sponsors. You need to be careful that you don’t ad stack, as I see happening far more. Now, I have turned away, I would say thousands of inquiries to sponsor and advertise on my podcast. I’m not interested in services that I don’t know or haven’t used. And so be mindful of that because the audience that you are building, they’re your ideal clients or ideal referral partners.
You know, I’ve been on a podcast or I’ve shared podcasts and someone has listened, accessed my quiz, gone through my funnel. Then through that came opportunities and contracts that I would never have been able to get in front of had it not been for someone who’d listened to my podcast or heard me on another podcast.
I know we’ve only got a short amount of time today, but there’s something that I share, which I’ve termed my podcast position in a quadrant. What I did was look through the lens of what I could see happening in the podcast space and in the radio space. There are four different quadrants. Now, there’s nothing wrong with these quadrants; however, the audience and level of expertise that you are wanting to really share on your the podcast is different if you’re a business owner who’s looking to build thought leadership.
Imagine a box with four quadrants, and in the diagram, imagine there’s an arrow going up, which is your audience, and on the bottom an arrow going left to right, which is authority.
So the lower left quadrant is an entertainer, with a low audience. That’s not an audience that is looking for expertise. They’re just there to be entertained. They want to listen to something in the background. And the authority is really low too.
The upper left quadrant is a celebrity. They may have a higher level of the audience who follows them, but here you might have the shock jocks or those radio personalities who are listened to and followed by people who just really resonate with their style and how they come across. But they’re not really seen as experts in a particular area.
Then the bottom right quadrant is an expert. Here you might have someone on a podcast, and they’ve got high authority because they’re speaking about a specific topic. And once that information is shared, off they go again.
But the last quadrant is the quadrant that I love to sit in and support clients. And that’s the top right, which is the high audience, high authority. And it is an influential, trusted authority. So it’s not just the topic that you’re talking about. It’s also the way you talk about it, the core values that you’re driven by, and the way you engage. Yes, it’s the unique and valuable listener experience that you create consistently across your own podcast or consistently if you are guesting. Now when you capture that, you become that influential, trusted authority. You are high on that quadrant. And that’s when you really can start to nurture those listeners into leads when you think of it that way. A podcast audience is so different from a radio audience who are there just for entertainment. And when you capture that right content in the way that you know your mannerisms, that is when it’s really going to stand out.
I love that! And I just want to add one more bit. I always say to people, when you’re a guest on podcasts, don’t just see it as a wasted opportunity. Just remember when people Google Mary Henderson, the first six pages on Google are just all podcasts of me being on other people’s podcasts. So I’m assuming our eyes also go into that top quadrant of being an influential expert because the types of podcasts that I’m on match what I do.
Yes, absolutely. One of the strategies that we are doing more of, and I’ve got my PR and podcast manager to find more of these, is to guest on more podcasts. I have not really guested much on podcasts because I have my own three. And I host and produce for my alliance partners, and I’m an introvert, which a lot of people find quite shocking. I need to manage my energy, but I see the value of the podcasts that I have been on. I’ve had inquiries from customers, and it’s building that authority. And even more important, if you are on the right podcast, exactly what you’ve said, here’s another connection that you have made. The seeds that you’ve planted today through that interview can continue to grow because as we know, podcasts have an everlasting lifespan and there’s this wonderful content that continues to build.
What are your thoughts on people that do solo podcasts and create their own content without any guests? I’m always interviewing a guest, but actually, I’m thinking that in between my industry expert interviews, I could do solo podcasts. I’m talking for maybe 15 minutes, just on areas that I’m really interested in talking about. What’s your view on that?
I now do solo shows as well as interviews. I remember asking one of my colleagues years ago when I was doing the Coach’s Connection podcast about doing some solo shows. She asked me what I meant. I replied that I only did interviews, and I wasn’t sure if people would be interested in listening to me if I did some solo ones. She thought they would, and she shared how she listened to a podcast on investment at that time. She said she loved the shows with a woman who was the host, and who had some solo shows. So I thought I’d try one. That episode that I launched had triple the number of listeners within a shorter amount of time than all of my guest ones.
And I figured there’s something in that. Maybe people do want to hear it from me. So definitely because, when you do a mixture of that, you can then bring aspects of your work into the podcast as well. So I think a mixture of both can work well! You are creating content for your incredible magazine, so you have these guests. And so if you’ve got that channel already of these listeners who are listening to that podcast, why not share your own expertise in that community?
Yes, absolutely. Annemarie, do you think that you have to pay to advertise the podcast? Or do you think it’s best to just do it organically and share it with your social networks? What’s your view on that?
I think it really depends on what strategy you have. You might have a particular guest or topic that really fits into your marketing strategy that is going to drive new listeners or even existing listeners to your podcast. If you’re using Facebook, for example, you know that you can target people who have been engaging with some of your content. So this could be an incredible strategy because once you get people to your podcast, you are going to announce something that you’re doing, whether it be a program or a live launch. And so mixed with an organic strategy, I think could work really well. But if you don’t have the budget yet, or you don’t want to do any advertising, then look at your existing audience.
I recently published an article on LinkedIn that mentioned the number of different ways to build your audience and subscribers for your podcast, but none of this was paid. All of it was using the existing audience that you’ve already been building, and your existing clients because your clients or former clients are most likely connected to like-minded people. There’s an audience there that you can go to, and there’s already the ”know, like, and trust” factor.
So when you ask that existing audience if they would share that with other people, they’re more likely to do it than a cold audience would. Look at the communities that you are already part of where you can start to share your content or your podcast episode. I think there’s a goldmine of opportunities to build the audience and get in front of your ideal client from what we are already doing in our business. And often we forget to leverage that, and we look for new opportunities.
As an extension to that, when we’re creating podcast content, the beautiful thing about that is the ability to repurpose the content. I just noticed that YouTube has introduced a podcast button. So if anyone’s got a channel, they can actually add all of their podcasts in that podcast section of their channel, which is amazing. So what does that tell us? They’re going down that path of Spotify, but now we’ve got video, we’ve got audio, and it’s in a one-stop shop. So repurposing content to me is just so sublime. This magazine is an interview in the magazine. It’s like words on paper or digital. It’s a podcast. We are using content to repurpose for other areas. It has such an expansive life, you know? I think we missed that point.
Oh, we are working with a client at the moment who said to me that she really doesn’t want to do all of the content creation that she sees other people do. And a lot of people are doing that, because they haven’t got the right message and they haven’t done all of the things that we’ve spoken about and that I know you speak about. And the reason is that the content is really not connecting. But I told her that if0 she does a 30-minute, a 20- minute, or even a 15-minute podcast, she can then chop that podcast up into quotes and graphics into real short reels. If you do videos, not that you have to, you can just do audio and put a graphic behind it and still turn it into a video.
It is repurposable, and it can continue to be leveraged. I know a content creator, and I’m the first to put my hand up and agree there is so much more repurposing that I could be doing. But I’m an avid content creator. We’re always thinking of new ways to think things through. And she said she’d never thought of it that way, but here’s the difference with the podcast. By writing, you can really capture an experience and deliver that. But there is nothing more powerful than a listener hearing a voice. I had someone who said they were listening to a podcast while they were at the gym. They had to stop the treadmill because all of a sudden the guests were sharing this heartfelt story. They had to go to the toilet and cry. That’s the kind of rapport that you build, with an audience in a podcast. And there’s nothing like having a gut-filled laugh that just sparks laughter, you know? Whereas writing, it would just be lol. You know, there’s a difference in that. So I think there are so many benefits to podcasting.
You’re absolutely right. Well, we’ve come to the end of this amazing interview, and I ask all of my guests this one last question. If you could meet someone who is no longer living, who would it be? What would you ask or what would you want to know?
Oh my goodness. This is a tough question. You know there are so many different people that are, and you know that I am faith-based. And people have probably said this yourself, but I think to walk in the time when Jesus would walk and meet some of the women, actually whom I would meet. There’s a woman that I’ve read about and she’s one of the judges. Her name was Deborah. She loved the Lord. And she was quite a force and well- respected in her time. So much so that the king of that time, Barack, I think his name was, came to her and said, ”We need your counsel.” And it was the cause of her counsel that came directly from the Lord that the king won the war. And because she was a judge, people would come to her for advice and what a way to sew into the community. So she would be a woman that I would go and speak to. My reason is that the culture of that day unfortunately was not very supportive of a woman, so the women had to work twice as hard or even more so. And what an incredible woman she would be to be able to interview and find out more about her life.
Absolutely gorgeous. Annemarie, if anyone wants to reach you, I think you also had a special offer for the people who are reading the magazine and listening to the podcast; where can we send them to look?
The best place since we’re talking about podcasting? I just to access the quiz to see if have I got the right things in place. I promised to share that. So they just need to go to podcastingwithpurpose.com/quiz. I’ve got some podcasts to and other goodies and resources for them to help them really start a blueprint of what that podcast could look like. I hope the resources are valuable to them.
Thank you. Or you can go to Annemarie’s website. I’ll have all the details in the magazine and underneath the podcast as well. Annemarie, what can I say about you, except that I absolutely love and respect you immensely? You are just such a trailblazer. And it’s such an honor to just know you and even call you a friend! Honestly, you really are a master of your craft.
And thank you so much for being an advocate for women and also for the entrepreneurial community as well. I know they are trying so hard to escape from this matrix that we’re caught up in and really want freedom for themselves and their family, also to make the world a better place. And you certainly leading that space. So thank you so much.
Thank you, too, Mary, for all you do!