Mary:
Jonathan. Welcome to Authoritti5.0. It’s absolutely awesome to have you on the front cover of the magazine and the podcast.
Jonathan:
Such an honor! This is my first-ever magazine cover. I never thought that I would have such an honor to be on a magazine cover. Thank you.
Mary:
Today is a really special day for me because you are my number one content creator on LinkedIn. And I know that you’re big on YouTube as well, and let me tell you why. When I think of personal branding, I think I must give my prospects and my community an ecstatic brand experience by providing value and being consistent. And this is what you do extremely well. Your approach to content literally should be taught at university. I’m not joking; I’m actually serious. I want to step into the mind of Jonathan Palmer. When you think of video content, what are the three things that you must check off your list?
Jonathan:
Well, the first thing that every video needs is a reason to stop you from scrolling, right? Because this is modern-day society, and we don’t have to sit through a commercial anymore. This isn’t an advertisement. Literally, the power’s in the people’s hands to scroll. So because of that, you have to have something that gets them to stop and be curious enough to watch and engage. So there needs to be a question or something that stands out that gets them to say, “Okay, now that I’ve stopped, I need a reason to watch.” Then, in the last element there has to be some degree of value because despite the fact that we might stop, despite the fact that we may be curious, we want an answer. If the answer does not satisfy us, we will never check it out again. So you have to have those three elements in order to get people’s attention, maintain it, and ensure that they come back for more.
Mary:
What you do needs to be taught in university, because you do have a science in the way that you produce your content. I was listening to an interview with Sean Cannell from Think Media, who has 1.75 million subscribers on his YouTube channel.
He was saying that the future of YouTube video is to master your strategy. We have seen a rise of video consumption during the pandemic across all social media platforms. Do you think that the pandemic has created a new video culture that we’re starting to see emerge as the new normal way of consuming and creating content?
Jonathan:
Absolutely. You know, another angle that I look at is Instagram. Recently, they spoke about the fact that they’re becoming more of a video-centric platform as opposed to photo. I think we’re recognizing that there are certain elements of this that are permanent, and there are a lot of people who share the belief that what is happening online is actually more real than what is happening in the outside world. It’s almost like we go out and we gather resources to come back inside to the real world, which is the online one. And it’s not necessarily that I agree with it, but based off all of the different elements of the pandemic, I understand that this is a new reality for all of us and our ability to communicate online through video is super important.
I just want to address this because when you look at Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg, you realize these are personalities that are primarily introverted. They’re not the most outgoing guys, but if I think back to all of the most profound things they’ve said, and especially the most profound thing that Bill Gates has said, it’s always documented on video. I remember seeing them speak about it. So despite the fact that these are not the most outgoing people, the way that we remember the messages that they’re sharing is through video. And because of that, I do feel like if you’re an executive, if you’re an authority in your field, you need to have this skillset right now.
Mary:
That’s absolutely right. We’ve moved into this space of video to get our messaging out, being clear on our mission and who it is that we want to start a conversation with. If we look back say three to five years ago, there was the rise of the so-called LinkedIn influencers and to be honest, 99% of those people are what I would call poor influences. Or actually, as I would say, #poorinfluencers. On the outside, they look like self-proclaimed rock stars but create amateurish content with zero value at all.
They desperately want the vanity metrics. Now that’s one side of the coin, and they get thousands of likes and engagement, but to me it’s just noise and nonsense and a waste of an opportunity. Now I see your content usually gets extremely high engagement. But the difference is that your content is 100% in service to your community. I get massive value watching your video content. I actually watch the entire video from beginning to end based on what I’ve just said.
What do you think the future of influencers actually looks like? Is it about really being clear on your value proposition and ensuring that you give value, based on what it is that you know? Or is being an influencer about wanting to be famous for being famous?
Jonathan:
That’s such a brilliant way of looking at it. I think more and more people are starting to recognize the individuals who cut corners, the individuals whose messages are hollow. There are a lot of these influencers and you can see that over time, they’re having less and less influencer impact on the platforms because like anything else, when a new trend starts, you have the diffusion of innovation. The early adopters do not have to be skilled, but as time progresses and more people with higher skillsets start to adopt these new platforms and these new art forms, the standards are getting higher and higher. So the individuals who commit themselves to creating the best content, being the most valuable, serving their audience the most, not just selling to them, are naturally going to be the ones who start to stand out.
Mary:
I think another thing to add to that, Jonathan, is the focus should not be on the vanity metrics. The focus really needs to be on creating content, just for the people that you want to serve, whether that’s a hundred people, a thousand people, or a hundred thousand people in your network. I’m not interested in creating videos where I’m going to be doing tap dancing. It’s not me, and my audience would find that of no value. Would it give me 5,000 likes?
Probably, but I’m not interested in those 5,000 people because I can’t actually serve them. So I think when you talk about value, I’d like to add one more bit to that and it’s not about serving everybody. Serving to a hundred people and getting 10 comments are ok, if they are real.
Jonathan:
That is such an excellent point. You know, one thing that I want you to know is be specific with that, especially with LinkedIn, because you will see that people connect with everyone. And then what happens is they essentially shoot themselves in the foot because when they go through their feed, it’s full of irrelevant content because they connected with all these irrelevant people. That’s great for Facebook, possibly Instagram, but if you’re there to do business, it will muddy up the water. And then you’ll say to yourself, “Well, LinkedIn doesn’t work for me.” It doesn’t work for you because you connected with all these people.
There are two types of people on LinkedIn. There are the people who are interested in being an influencer and being authorities in their field. And there are individuals who
to be celebrities and they see the opportunity on LinkedIn because the algorithm is sweet, right? So they say to themselves, “Okay, I can make my Hollywood ambitions come true, and I can get the dopamine hit on LinkedIn because of the algorithm.” But a lot of people lie to themselves. They don’t realize that they’re chasing celebrity, not authority. And there is a very fine line between the two, but it does get confused. The one thing that I would challenge people to look at is something you could do right now. If you go through your last five posts and you cannot identify what you do for a living based on them, you need to reevaluate your content altogether. Because in those last five posts, it should be more than abundantly clear what it is that you do for your audience.
Mary:
I love your content and Shay’s content because it is in context. I always use you as an example, Jonathan, even with my own clients, if you want to be seen as the authority, put your content into context.
You’re in the business of creating video content. So what you present on LinkedIn, regardless of what the messaging is in terms of the actual script, it’s in context. I’m looking at how you show up. I’m looking at the structure; I’m looking at what is this person trying to show me? What do I need to take away from this? I’m looking at the structure, how you structure your content, the value, the takeaway, the call to action, and how you wrap that up in video production.
So it’s in context. I believe you. I trust you. I want to have a conversation with you.
What people do is they get off the rail and they want to be famous. But this is where the danger zone is. And we’re not talking here about 15-year-olds, we are 30-, 40-, 50-year-olds who literally want to be famous. And as you said, LinkedIn still provides opportunity for people to go down that path. But I think content in context with what it is that you actually do in terms of the solution that you bring to the world is fundamental.
Jonathan:
That is such a great point. It discourages me and it hurts me when I see people who work incredibly hard on their content and their messaging. They don’t get the vanity metrics. And then somebody that has higher vanity metrics judges them because they don’t get those vanity metrics. And I’m like, listen, this individual may not have the numbers that you think they need, but this individual I trust with my life. So don’t allow anybody to mislead you in that way. There is a big, big difference.
Mary:
Jonathan, you’re a video producer, creator, and writer. You know all of the above, and you’re brilliant at it. Can you unpack the layers of how to create a brilliant video that gets attention? What are the key elements that it must have?
Jonathan:
A lot of people say that you reach expert level when you can take a difficult thing and make it look easy. I feel like I’m the opposite. I take an easy thing and make it look very difficult because the reality is you do not need all of the elements that I put into video to be effective. I do that because for me, it’s art; while some people are watching Netflix, I edit videos. That’s something that I’m very passionate about. But with clients, with individuals who are listening to this or reading this, it is something anybody can do. And it really doesn’t take as much production as people think. But the reality is if you have an impactful message, if there was an order of things, I would recommend to any business owner or entrepreneur, or anyone who wants to put content out there like marketers or salespeople, I would say, at the core of it, you need to start every video with something that’s relatable.
Something that your audience immediately can say, this is me. This person’s talking to me. So what are the things that we all experience? Pick something like that to open your video with, for example, losing your keys in the morning when you’ve got to drop the kids off at school, or the argument in the office about does coffee smell better than it tastes? Just pick something that gets people’s attention that’s relatable. Then from there, tell some type of personal story, something where your audience can say, this person is like me, they’ve experienced something just like I have. From there we want to use an analogy or a metaphor to connect it to what we do in business, right? So an example would be, “This relates to an experience I had in my office. I’m an executive and I work for this firm,” and then you slowly start introducing some piece of value for your audience, whether it’s a tip or some type of solution.
And don’t overwhelm them. A lot of people go in one direction or the other, so there’ll be no value to the video, or there’ll be way too much. And let me explain that. You don’t want to give people the instructions to build a house because nobody’s taking notes while they’re watching your video. Instead, give them advice on how to clear their desk or something simple: one takeaway, one piece of valuable advice that they can apply immediately. And they can take that and feel like you gave them some value. I would say a relatable topic, some type of personal story attached to it, a metaphor to connect it to your business, one piece of simple, valuable information, and then a call to action. Whether it’s tagging somebody in the comments who could use this piece of advice, this call to action is less in your face.
You’re asking them to tag somebody else instead of telling them to comment or like it directly. And what we’re learning about the algorithm, which is super interesting, is that the algorithm today actually rewards people who click on your profile more than a like, or a comment. So you want to drive people to check out your profile. If you got value out of this video, go click on my profile and check out some of the other pieces of content that I’ve created. And that’s a great way to take advantage of the algorithm.
Mary:
What do you think the one mistake people make when creating video content? What’s the one thing that you see all the time?
Jonathan:
They introduce themselves. Your name is right above the video, so you don’t need to introduce yourself. That’s like the people who wear a nametag, but then still feel they need to introduce themselves. But as statistics prove, you have three seconds to get your audience engaged that will determine whether they like or comment or whether they move on. And if you start with your name, they’re going to look at you like you’re a doofus because right above your video is your name. And they’re going to think “ This person doesn’t have the appropriate amount of gray matter to get my attention. So I’m going to move on.”
Mary:
I think that a lot of people get nervous when they’re on video. What I find really irritating is when someone gets on a video and says, “This is my first video and John’s blog challenged me to just tell my story.” Listen, I’m not interested in your story. I don’t care about your dog, your cat, or dropping off your kids at school. That’s the life I lead every day. Give me something that I don’t know, otherwise, it’s a wasted opportunity and that’s what turns people off. But as you say, that’s why I love having a structure because once you understand that formula, then
you can just create little micro bits and put it together. You’ll get much more attraction from the right people. So should the videos you create for LinkedIn and YouTube and Instagram all be different or can we use the same content?
Jonathan:
That’s such a brilliant question. So with YouTube, we know that between 8 to 11 minutes is the sweet spot. I have to check, but I think 10 minutes is when you can start to monetize your videos. People go to YouTube because it’s a search engine. So they’re already going with the mindset that they’re looking for answers, where on LinkedIn or Instagram it’s discovery. So people are discovering your content, but they weren’t necessarily searching for what it is that you do, or the services that you provide. It’s a completely different mindset. That’s why Instagram and LinkedIn videos have to be shorter because people are not expecting to see you today. They weren’t looking for you. So, that’s why I recommend that videos on LinkedIn be between 30 seconds to 1 minute.
Folks are going to look at my videos and say, “Wait a second. Jon’s videos are three minutes long. It is a hundred percent ego.” I’m going to be honest: I love it because I love the art of it. But if my focus was only in providing value to my audience, the videos would never go over a minute. But because I like the sound of my voice, I like putting a bunch of art into my video. I make them three minutes long, but it’s not what I recommend to clients. I’d say, keep it around a minute. That’s the sweet spot.
Mary:
I would say that the majority of people who see your content watch the whole video. I know I do. Why? Because you actually do provide value. I understand and appreciate the art, but I also find them entertaining, I have a laugh, and I do get value out of it. I actually think that it’s not necessarily ego. I can see that you are brilliant at it, but the value that you provide way supersedes the ego part of it. So there is a big difference because the ones that are producing egocentric content like Beat Box, music or whatever, and they’re 40+, which is very sad. I just find that weird. What you do is educate. Your content is like a micro masterclass.
You produce one piece of content per week and you get massive exposure. I think that if you check your statistics, you’d see that people come back and watch your videos over and over again.
Jonathan:
Mary, that’s something I really wanted to touch on because I’m empathetic. A lot of people may wonder why I’m on LinkedIn. I know I don’t look like the typical business professional, but I really am there for business professionals specifically. And I’ll say this: There are a lot of influencers that will preach about needing to create 160 pieces of content a day and needing to be posting on every platform. When I was starting out, I went in with the mindset of thinking about the single mother who has two jobs. And I’m thinking about the young executive who’s just starting out. I’m thinking about the 55-year-old woman who’s starting a new career. They cannot create content every single day. So if I could just be a case study of someone who creates content once a week, but fills it with value, then I feel like that is something anybody could do. Maybe they can’t do it the exact same way. Maybe the metrics won’t work out the exact same way, but I wanted to prove that the algorithm ensures that when you create great valuable content, people will continue to come back. And that algorithm will not dock you just because you’re there once a week. If you’re always a part of the community and you do your best to bring value to your audience, it doesn’t have to be an every day thing. And that was really something that was important to me when I was starting out. And I’ve stuck with that. I hope that I’m proof that you don’t have to do it every day, but it does have to be valuable.
Mary:
It really does have to be valuable. So what is the best way to find a hot topic for video content? Because I think most people get stuck on the actual topic of their video.
Jonathan:
If you Google symptoms, you’re going to get the results that have the best SEO, and so everybody’s gonna end up having cancer and AIDS. So, that’s why you don’t Google symptoms, right? Google is not a great resource when looking for content ideas. I actually turned to YouTube because it’s the number two search engine. What I do is I enter my industry in the YouTube search and then I filter by views. When you filter by views, these are the types of pieces of content that people are actually searching for without SEO being a factor because it’s driven by the views. I would encourage anybody who’s creating content, whether it’s video or articles, to go to YouTube. It’s actually a great resource. The second one is www.askthepublic.com. It’s another brilliant resource, full of hundreds of thousands of different questions that are trending on Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, Google, Instagram, everywhere. And between those two resources, you could have hundreds of pieces of relevant content that your audience is really looking for answers about.
Mary:
Most people who are on a platform like LinkedIn are there to be seen and heard as the go-to expert. And yet very few are generating leads. Most are pushing content that is leading them to a dead end, which really causes a lot of pain in the heart. Like it’s a really, really big deal. So to be seen and heard on LinkedIn, what would you say are the three things that can get you attention that most people are not doing?
Jonathan:
Let’s say you have a booth at a conference. I’m sure you’ve been to quite a few conferences in your life at this point. You’re professional, and you are very good at what you do. What people tend to do when they have booths is sit behind the booth and wait for people to come to them. And what happens? You might get some interest, but to be a lot more effective, you have to actually walk around the conference floor, you have to go around the expo, you have to hand your cards to people. You make contacts, you walk up to other people’s booths, and you ask them, “What do you do? How do you provide value?”
What I’m trying to say through this is that the version of that scenario on LinkedIn is commenting. I feel like it’s such a long start, especially on a place like LinkedIn, so be the best comment on a post that is going viral. I’ll follow, let’s say five individuals that always seem to get a lot of engagement on their content that is good and relevant to what I’m doing. I would find other video creators who also have high degrees of engagement. I would try to get my comment as soon as they post it. I’d figure out that they post around this time. On this day, I would leave five comments. Five comments, five individuals, and make sure that my comment was the most valuable comment possible because then I could get a bunch of likes on that comment.
And then what ends up happening is when people see their posts, right below it is my comment. And especially when I was just starting to scale, I was just starting to stand out. I would always try to be that person. And over time I built a lot of my following just based on having a valuable comment, because the reality is comments are content. You can take that comment and turn that into a piece of content. So I would say that this is a whole thing that people are completely missing out on.
Mary:
That’s what I did when I started becoming serious on LinkedIn. That’s exactly how I built my following as well. I just commented, and I went hard on that. That was my priority. I think actually for a whole year, that was literally my primary focus. Then I started to build my presence, my profile. I still do the commenting because I think is very important and a critical part of the puzzle, especially on LinkedIn.
Jonathan:
I wanted to add something to that because it actually reminded me of something. You said, a part of your process was building your profile. I feel another lost opportunity that happens all the time is you’ll have a prospect.
They see your posts. They fall in love with you. They want to do business with you, but then they click on your profile and they don’t have an easy way to reach you. How many times have you had to call the cable company, the water company, whatever, and you could never find their phone number? And you’re looking here, and you’re looking there. And there’s so much friction between you and this thing. And I think a lot of people on LinkedIn do have prospects who want to do business with them, but because there’s not an easy way to access them, they lose the opportunity.
Another opportunity on LinkedIn is the featured section, which is the real secret. Take your featured section, have a link to your product page, an inquiry sheet, an intake form, or something that gives your prospects an easy way to reach you. When we started having our clients do that, they started converting tenfold because of something as simple as reducing the steps to get to them, reducing the friction between them. It made such a difference.
Mary:
I love that. That’s a really important one as well. So let me just shift the gears a little bit. I am now in the process of creating a strategy for my LinkedIn live and combining that with YouTube because I believe the future of content is becoming your own media company.
As Sean Cannell says, “You have to be extremely strategic in the execution.” Now, given you are a video creator producer, what is your view on this, Jonathan?
Jonathan:
I couldn’t agree more. What is an influencer? What is an influencer actually influencing? If there’s anything that I want to be identified as if we use the word influencer, it’s influencing something very specific. I feel like the most important people in history were very good at one specific thing. They were known for it. They weren’t these influencers that just influence thought in totality. No, they were very good at one specific thing.
And as media continues to change, social media continues to change the people who will be the most effective. They are the ones who are great at one specific part of the process. And if we’re talking about the ability to send an inbox message, they were the absolute best at sending one. You know, even with something as simple as that, those people are going to be the ones who stand out the most, especially because we’re talking about search engines here, we’re talking about YouTube. People are putting in very specific searches, so if you could be the expert at that very specific thing, you’ll hit it rich easily.
Mary:
Absolutely love it, and just touching on YouTube, because we’re sort of focused on LinkedIn, I do think, Jonathan, that YouTube is still a massive opportunity. If you treat it like you are a TV show or a TV channel, like your own Netflix and create a series of episodes based on the area of expertise, targeting a very specific audience, you will win. I truly believe that LinkedIn combined with YouTube is lethal. What do you think because you’re a big supporter of YouTube as well? How do you see YouTube playing out?
Jonathan:
YouTube is going to be the final survivor. I believe that so deeply in my heart, and that’s why I’m starting to convert more and more of my attention over there. YouTube is very unique in the sense that it continues to grow exponentially, it’s a search engine, and the way that it’s formatted it will always exist. There will always be a need for it. This isn’t something that’s driven by algorithms. This is a resource that continues to grow and exponentially. I can see very much how Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn could all be trends because they all serve very specific purposes. But with YouTube, the fact that it’s long-form content and the way that it seems to be operating, I would be going all in on it and using LinkedIn as a platform to launch your YouTube, because there’s so much opportunity and it’s limitless. Also, the monetization speaks for itself. The fact that people can make money off of their content based on searches is enough for me to believe there’s a future for anybody, If they really apply themselves.
Mary:
I absolutely agree with you. Okay. So now we’ve come to the end of our interview. And there’s one question I ask everybody. Who would you like to meet that is no longer living? What would you want to ask? Or what would you want to know?
Jonathan:
I always think of those people who were extraordinary in some area of their life, and I’d wonder how they would answer it. I was 27 relatively recently. A lot of artists, a lot of musicians, a lot of comedians, actors will pass away at 27. They’ll take their own lives. Unfortunately, you know, God bless them. But a lot of them hit a certain degree of success, and it was either like substance abuse, depression, all these things that hurt them. I would love to get into their head because there are elements of that, that I do understand now. And I do realize that this idea of having, vanity metrics and likes and comments and people in your inbox and people appreciating you and adoring your work, it’s not everything. You start to lose attachment, lose connection to it.
And this is something that I fought so hard for. And then when you’re on the other side of it and you realize this isn’t everything, it actually feels very numb. I’m very indifferent about it. You start questioning what all of this is about when you set your goal to be this thing you reach it, and then it’s not what you thought it would be. It can be very discouraging. So I’d love to get into their head and kind of better understand what would have made them happy, what could have changed their direction, because I think I’m still fighting with that myself.
Mary:
It’s interesting that you say that because I think that where we’re heading as a society is pretty scary on one hand, and on the other hand, it’s exciting. But the other thing that excites me, Jonathan, is that once upon a time we looked at Hollywood stars as the bee’s knees, and I actually think that’s dying out. I think that what we’re looking at is, which is why YouTube is so powerful, that anyone can create their own stardom in anything that they want and not have to actually rely on some role model who looks like plastic fantastic. I don’t want to look picture perfect. I just want to be me. And I want to love that version of me and just bring what I can to the world in my little niche, servicing a little niche part of the community out in the big wide world and not have to be governed by how I need to look or how I need to act, or what brands I need to be wearing. I think that this is a massive opportunity, especially for the next generation of our children. I’ve got an 11-year-old who’s basically interested right now in one thing – starting an Amazon business.
It’s all he can think about. He’s already interested in the next 10 years of his life because he’s not governed by wanting to be like someone else.
Jonathan:
I really do believe the power is in the people’s hands. These are not executives who work for these big corporations that are pushing a specific agenda. People are waking up and realizing that they have the ability to speak up and say, “This is unacceptable. We don’t want to subscribe to that anymore.” And they’re there. They’re doing it with their eyeballs, even the dollars. Their eyeballs are dictating who gets big and who doesn’t. And the fact that we have an opportunity right now is a little bit of a Wild West. It’s not regulated. We have the ability to create these things on our own. I encourage anybody who’s listening to take advantage of the moment right now because I guarantee it’s not going to be like this forever.
I’ve never seen it be such an open field for people to create their own thing, with an opportunity to make it themselves. And you don’t need anything. You could have a cell phone, a selfie stick, a little
$200 camera, and you could be everything in a very specific niche. If that’s what you want to do, there will never be another opportunity like this.
Mary:
I’m a big fan of yours, Jonathan. Thank you for your time. This has been such a wonderful opportunity and such a real deep, deep, deep discussion. And I know that people would find it an absolute value. So thank you.